Jade Troth is back

[AndyW]

Someone with more sense of fashion than I have, please tell me what he's wearing this morning?

Seriously odd, with a high neck that makes it look as if he's had a wardrobe disaster immediately before coming on air and someone's lent him a low-cut blouse, which he's put on backwards. Or is it a last of stock Destello special?!

 

[TheManWithNoName]

He also wears a white top that looks like a ladies top.

Perhaps he was given them as a gift by the Jadeite mine owners for single-handedly buying the entire contents of their mines?

 

[TheManWithNoName]

Did anyone see Troth's "Jadeite Debate" show this morning? I've cringed at shows before - but this was right up there towards the top of the cringe scale.

"Loads of people from across the UK are tuning in for this show" - like it ranks alongside a Royal wedding for appeal.

No Dave, I can assure you that loads of people from across the UK are changing their channel AWAY from Gemporia to avoid being bored to death as you drone on in your mums jumper.

Apart from coming across as a massive self-back-patting and ego-stroking exercise, I have a feeling this so-called 'debate' show was aimed at this forum. He was very much hammering home the point that his Type A Jadeshite was the real deal and showed pictures of alleged customers' valuations and independent certificates of authenticity. Straight away, I thought it was aimed at the post on here whereas someone claimed that their Type A Jadeite was supposedly Type B/C.

I thought a debate involved other people joining in anyway?............

He was telling people to message in with their 'thoughts' - but we all know that they're only going to cherry pick the positive posts, and the negative posts will be filtered out.

I have no doubts at all that his Jade is Type A. The customer that claimed hers was Type B/C was wrong.

You only have to at how naff the Type A stuff is to know that its genuine Type A Jade. Type B/C is a very heavy green colour that stands out a mile that it is dyed because the colour just look completely unnatural.

The fact that Gemporia's stuff is so wishy-washy in colour proves that it is untreated. The so-called 'Dove Blue' 'Lavender' and other random 'colours' are even worse - they're all a slightly murky off-white almost grey colour.

 

[SnowMoon]

I didn't see it. But I have never got the hoo-hah about "Type A" anyway. It just means untreated. Surely the best jade has more going for it than just being untreated? Like colour? Does it have inclusions? If it is carved how good is the carving? To be honest Jade does not float my boat anyway so I have not bothered to swot up. But if they are ripping people off - and I suspect the prices are massively inflated and exaggerated - that is beyond the pale. Some people do really trust them (I don't they are salespeople and there to make a profit - as much of a profit as possible) but some people are vulnerable and lonely and to exploit that would be morally bankrupt. If they are doing that then they should remember something, Karma is a bitch.

 

[AndyW]

...I have a feeling this so-called 'debate' show was aimed at this forum. He was very much hammering home the point that his Type A Jadeshite was the real deal and showed pictures of alleged customers' valuations and independent certificates of authenticity. Straight away, I thought it was aimed at the post on here whereas someone claimed that their Type A Jadeite was supposedly Type B/C...

Yes! Didn't watch it, turned it off but I did see Angeline's pre-segment spiel when I thought exactly that - especially when she leaned forwards, across the desk and lowered her voice. As I've said before..."I know where you live, mate, and so do my friends."

 

[SnowMoon]

Yes! Didn't watch it, turned it off but I did see Angeline's pre-segment spiel when I thought exactly that - especially when she leaned forwards, across the desk and lowered her voice. As I've said before..."I know where you live, mate, and so do my friends."

They seem to be doing pretty much the same show now. Apparently, the Lady who was originally saying she had a piece tested and it came back "inconclusive" then sent four pieces off to Anchor asking for them to be tested to see if they were Type A. Which they were. She then gave consent for them to show the certificates she got on TV. So this IS the person who had the negative test. So Angeline would not have been directing comments at the person - because it is the same person.

However, much as they are banging on about it being Type A and proven to be Type A. Which is true. Nobody has said it is worth the prices Dave is charging. I still have doubts as I see items that look identical on Temu and Ebay (as we all do) for pennies on the pound of what he charges. Many also have certificates - which may be reliable or not - but then I have had certificates from Gems that have been incorrect.

So, yeah, still unconvinced, it may be untreated but you can have an untreated flawless, colourless diamond or an untreated, massively included, grey crappy diamond. Both are untreated. I am sure there must be more criteria than that with jade. But this from the GIA : "Jadeite’s three most important qualities, in order of their impact on its market value, are color, transparency, and texture."

Jadeite Jade Quality Factors

Learn about the factors that make jade so desirable.

www.gia.edu

 

[AndyW]

They seem to be doing pretty much the same show now. Apparently, the Lady who was originally saying she had a piece tested and it came back "inconclusive" then sent four pieces off to Anchor...

Here you go. Lindsey has just shown one of those certificates:

Fine, as you say. In my ignorance though...

a) Colour: Descriptions of colour variations - don't they lead with the strongest hue? So this is grey before it's green?

b) Treatment: Someone convince me that this is not a qualified statement ("...other than wax")? Isn't Turquoise often waxed too for stability?

Dunno but I think it all goes to your point, SnowMoon. Colour is King. The green jade sold for mega bucks at our favourite auction house Bonham's is sooo green and sooo clear. (Is that waxed too?!)

 

[Rose de France]

Colour is King.

But now David claims that CLARITY ("water") is King.

 

[TheManWithNoName]

Untreated other than wax means its been treated with wax then - so therefore, it is not 'untreated'..........

Does that mean their Swiss Blue Topaz gemstones are untreated other than irradiation then?

Or their sapphires are untreated other than heat treatment then?

Anyway, I'll reply more in depth later. Just about to order a pizza - which is raw other than being cooked in an oven.

 

[TheManWithNoName]

Right, I'm back. I decided against the pizza. I decided to have a curry, which was mild other than the Carolina Reaper pepper in it.

This whole 'debate' show was a farce. In what was, presumably, a show intended to 'clarify all doubt' about the stone, it's actually made me even more sceptical.

First of all, Troth showed a supposed excerpt of what the lady had written in a letter - but all they showed was a random quote in the middle of a blank white screen. If this letter was genuine, why not show the letter "as is", with everything, other than the quote they wanted to show, redacted by blocking the remaining text out in black. That would have shown that the letter was genuine.

They then showed what was supposed to be a letter, from the lady to Gemporia, saying that the lab had confirmed that what she had bought was genuine. But, again, all they showed was a quote on the screen. At no point did they actually show the letter.

BUT this is where they really screwed up. When they put the supposed letter from the lady to Gemporia on screen, above the quote, it had the "AnchorCert Gem Lab" logo above it. Now, if, as they claim, this letter was from the woman to Gemporia, why on earth did it have an "AnchorCert Lab" logo on the letter? The only letter with that logo would have been the response from AnchorCert to the lady!

Now for more scepticism................

At no point was the lady's name mentioned. She wasn't even referred to as Mrs X from Salisbury or Mrs X from Aberystwyth. We have no idea who she is, or where she's from - or even if she actually really exists.

But we do know that Gemporia are half an hour away from Birmingham. A quick Google tells me that AnchorLab are part of the Assay Office - in Birmingham.

We also know that the Birmingham Assay Office do a lot of work with Gemporia. They:

a) Hallmark their jewellery.
b) Give independent valuations of Gemporia's jewellery.
c) Have a close relationship with Steve Bennett - as Steve Bennett used to openly mention on-air years ago.

The lady could have sent her jewellery to any lab in the country, or even the world. She could have also popped it into any Jewellers shop for them to pass on to their partner labs (this is the route most people would go down, because they wouldn't have a clue how to go about sending jewellery to a lab to be identified). However, she just so happened to choose the lab that Gemporia have ties with? Sure, it could be genuine - but it could also be a bit too coincidental. That's for other people to make their mind up.

Regardless of any that, one thing has been proven from the certificate they showed on-air today - the Jadeite that they've been pushing as untreated appears to be waxed. The certificate clearly states "Untreated other than wax".

Now, Gemporia's argument may be that as the wax is only a coating on the surface of the stone, and doesn't actually become part of the stone, then it isn't really a treatment - however, Sleeping Beauty Turquoise is also waxed - and they openly declare that under their treatments. So why the inconsistency?

If waxing is considered a treatment by Gemporia, then they need to disclose it on EVERYTHING they sell that is waxed.
If waxing is NOT considered a treatment by Gemporia, then they need to remove it from on-screen graphics and documentation as a treatment, on EVERYTHING that they sell.

They can't pick and choose when they feel that something is or isn't a treatment - because it breaks all trust, and it alienates customers. It also creates scepticism such as all that that has arisen with the Jadeite.

So this is where I suspect that this lady has been confused with the Jade that she bought. I strongly suspect that BOTH labs have confused her slightly by being vague. I suspect that the first lab noticed the waxing - and, incorrectly, told her that it was Type B/C because of that treatment. I also suspect that the AnchorCert lab have now confused her into thinking that it is natural / untreated - but that lab certificate is VERY misleading and vague by saying "Untreated other than wax". Whether that wax penetrates into the stone or not, that wax has formed a coating that has been applied with human intervention - therefore, it is not 'untreated'.

Applying vague terms to certificates of authenticity such as 'Untreated other than wax' sets a bad precedent for the industry and opens a HUGE can of worms. ANY treatment is treatment. It's irrelevant how minimal or harsh that treatment is. Therefore, it MUST, and SHOULD ALWAYS be disclosed.

This is why I've been screaming out for the industry to be regulated for years.

 

[AndyW]

I agree - AnchorCert's document is equivocation at best. Not sure I'd be best pleased forking out for that...Lab certification can be no more than a gemstone or a jewellery inventory listing for, say, an auction or other type of valuation (similar to the US appraisal system but without the currency value element). This AnchorCert paper seems no more than that, to me.

I'm pretty sure, though, that Mr T has said that Type A is untreated; perhaps not. Either way, it muddies the water - for me. If emeralds can be graded by a lab to the degree in which they're oiled, for example, or "heat" is "standard" for some minerals then is waxed jadeite standard? I haven't bought any jade from DT so I don't know what the Gemporia certs say as far as treatments are concerned.

These things are a nightmare, as you say. EGL diamond grading being the one that springs to mind. At least the Birmingham Assay Office is not commercially motivated.

 

[TheManWithNoName]

I've looked further into this since yesterday, and apparently waxing IS NOT classed as a treatment unless it penetrates the stone. If it is a surface coating, it is not considered a treatment because it hasn't altered the stone in any way - and the wax can be removed. Think of it in the same way as car wax.

I tend to agree - I don't consider a stone treated unless it actually alters the stone.

But this is where the industry is a mess because Turquoise can also be waxed - but that IS disclosed as a treatment, despite still being a surface coating. Sleeping Beauty Turquoise is often waxed - which gives it its glossy appearance.

Some other Turquoise is stabilised - which is when wax and resins have penetrated into the stone - and therefore altered it physically. This 100% should be disclosed.

This is where the industry needs to be more consistent. Waxing either needs to be considered a treatment or not. It then needs applying to everything it applies to (ie, if it isn't considered a treatment on Jadeite, then it shouldn't be considered a treatment on Turquoise either - but if it IS considered a treatment on Jadeite, then it also needs to apply to Turquoise).

The same applies to heat treatment. Gemporia are very open about heat treatment - but many in the industry are not. Many consider heat treatment as an extension of the natural process - and therefore don't see it as a treatment.

I don't mind heat treatment - I tend to avoid buying treated stones in general, but I make exceptions for heat treatment because, as the industry rightly says, it's simply extending a process that would have happened underground if the stone had remained unearthed until tens/hundreds of years later. However, it still needs to be disclosed because it happened AFTER it left the ground and happened via human intervention - so it is a treatment regardless.

I really can't understand why the industry can't regulate this and make the rules very easy. If a treatment penetrates a stone, and has been caused after it has left the ground by human intervention, then it has been treated - it is as simple as that.

Perhaps introduce a treatment grading system similar to how stones are graded too - based on severity/harshness of the treatment - something like:

Band E (The harshest, most aggressively treated stones that would would, essentially, be junk or scrap without treatment):

Filled stones - pumped full of glass and resin to fill cracks and crevices - such as Rubies and Sapphires (and, increasingly, Emeralds)
Diffused stones - Awful looking stones that have been artificially coloured by heating them up to melting point, adding chemical to colour the stone, before letting them cool again - usually Sapphires, but also stones like Labradorite (to make a fake 'variety' of stone called Andesine)
Reconstitution/Compression - Fragments of many stones compressed together to make one stone. Personally, I don't even think these should be categorised as 'real / genuine' gemstones.
Dyed stones - such as some Agates and Chalcedony.
Smoked stones - such as Opals
Irradiation - stones such as Yellow Beryl / Heliodor, or Kunzite, that started off a totally different colour - but had their colour changed solely to make it a colour that is more desirable or expensive (such as irradiating Goshenite - a colourless Beryl that isn't very popular - so that it becomes Morganite - a pink Beryl which is very popular, in demand, and becoming rare to find naturally).

Band D (stones that would have been fine without treatment - but they've been treated with a harsh additive penetrated into the stone to make it less or non-absorbent):

Stones such as Turquoise, Howlite, Ceruleite, etc.

Band C (stones that have been irradiated - but only to create a colour that doesn't exist naturally):

Topaz - irradiated to make Swiss Blue Topaz and London Blue Topaz. Without irradiation, these colours would not exist as they do not form naturally.

Band B (a fairly simple, relatively harmless treatment that would have occurred naturally if left in the ground):

Heat treatment - stones such as Sapphires, Rubies, etc

Band A (surface treatments that do not penetrate or physically alter the stone in any way, shape or form - and can be removed at any time):

Waxing - a light coating of wax to act as a protectant and/or give the stone a more polished appearance.
Oiling - a light coating of baby oil simply to stop the stone from cracking or to hide slight surface imperfections.
Coating - a foil-like coating on the underside of the stone to create 'effects' - such as those on Mystic Topaz, etc.


Under the current system, I suspect that even when people can see that a stone is treated, they may not fully understand what that treatment is and / or how it has affected the stone that they have bought. For example, do they realise that if they have bought an expensive irradiated Morganite, it started off as cheap colourless Goshenite - and because irradiation is unstable, over time, their expensive Pink Morganite could revert back to being a cheap colourless Goshenite. This is NEVER pointed out by sellers.

I will not buy any stones from bands E & D. They do not interest me in the slightest. I wouldn't even own them if they were free.

 

[ianrobo111]

thanks for the detailed explanation for a novice like me much appreciated, ah Gemporia is filmed locally to Brum, explains why Troth is listed as 'West mids' on LinkedIn then

 

[TheManWithNoName]

thanks for the detailed explanation for a novice like me much appreciated, ah Gemporia is filmed locally to Brum, explains why Troth is listed as 'West mids' on LinkedIn then

Yeah their buildings are all in Redditch (Worcestershire), 10 minutes off the M5, so just outside the West Midlands border.

The Gemporia Studios, their warehouses, and the old Jewellery Maker 'Ivy House' studio are all within a 10 minute of each other.

 

[ianrobo111]

Yeah their buildings are all in Redditch (Worcestershire), 10 minutes off the M5, so just outside the West Midlands border.

The Gemporia Studios, their warehouses, and the old Jewellery Maker 'Ivy House' studio are all within a 10 minute of each other.

I live in Brum so know it well. Makes sense why use Assay of course but this constant use of Troth is because presume short of other stuff ?

 

[TheManWithNoName]

I live in Brum so know it well. Makes sense why use Assay of course but this constant use of Troth is because presume short of other stuff ?

No idea why they keep putting Troth on. The general consensus on here and social media is that people are sick of the sight of both him and his Jadeite - yet no matter how much people complain, Gemporia seem to think its a good idea to constantly have him waffling to us, and they tell us, and I quote from one of their Facebook responses, "we like to educate our viewers".

He's on again now, with apparently a 'last minute show' that has been put together quickly because he claims that he's had a phone call today from someone wanting White Jadeite - insinuating that this is our last chance to buy before he takes it to the Hong Kong Gem fair in a few months time to flog to this bloke.

He also says he's only got enough Jadeite left to last until May (he didn't state May of which year............)

Bearing in mind that they told us that they were coming to the end of the Jadeite this time last year, I don't believe a word that they say.

The messages are flooding in thick and fast now. A woman has just messaged in claiming that she's been a Gem-A qualified gemologist since 1969 and tests everything that she buys. She says she only buys her jewellery from Gemporia because they're the only ones that she trusts and she's "never had to return anything as not as described - I've never had that problem with Gemporia".

Troth pipes up "See, we're more reliable than jewellery houses" or words to that effect.

Yeah, this is the same "more reliable than jewellery houses" company that were selling their heat treated Madagascan Padparadscha Sapphires as "not enhanced" until they were pulled up about it with evidence via a GIA lab report that they were in fact heat treated...................

 

[Anna]

Enough jade to last till May .........noooooooo.................please God, make it stop.

 

[Marietta]

No idea why they keep putting Troth on. The general consensus on here and social media is that people are sick of the sight of both him and his Jadeite - yet no matter how much people complain, Gemporia seem to think its a good idea to constantly have him waffling to us, and they tell us, and I quote from one of their Facebook responses, "we like to educate our viewers".

He's on again now, with apparently a 'last minute show' that has been put together quickly because he claims that he's had a phone call today from someone wanting White Jadeite - insinuating that this is our last chance to buy before he takes it to the Hong Kong Gem fair in a few months time to flog to this bloke.

He also says he's only got enough Jadeite left to last until May (he didn't state May of which year............)

Bearing in mind that they told us that they were coming to the end of the Jadeite this time last year, I don't believe a word that they say.

The messages are flooding in thick and fast now. A woman has just messaged in claiming that she's been a Gem-A qualified gemologist since 1969 and tests everything that she buys. She says she only buys her jewellery from Gemporia because they're the only ones that she trusts and she's "never had to return anything as not as described - I've never had that problem with Gemporia".

Troth pipes up "See, we're more reliable than jewellery houses" or words to that effect.

Yeah, this is the same "more reliable than jewellery houses" company that were selling their heat treated Madagascan Padparadscha Sapphires as "not enhanced" until they were pulled up about it with evidence via a GIA lab report that they were in fact heat treated...................

I, too, have just switched on and Troth is rabbiting on & on about Jadeite, as usual. So, they want to educate their viewers? How could anyone listen long enough for that? On & on he goes, not pausing for breath! I actually don't know or care what he's talking about, the man is a disaster. Does anyone really listen to what he's saying? And the glowing 'testimonials' from buyers - all typed up on the same sheet of paper, no names or identification attached. Are we supposed to believe these are authentic? I don't believe anything from those chancers anymore.
Forget about Gemporia folks, it's not the Gems TV we used to know & enjoy watching. Those two numpties, Troth and Thompson, have put the last nail in the coffin.

 

[TheManWithNoName]

Enough jade to last till May .........noooooooo.................please God, make it stop.

He didn't say which May either..............

Fast forward to May 2037 and visualise Troth standing there, 'BREAKING NEWS' on the screen behind him, 30 second clock ticking down, telling us the last of the Jadeite is almost upon us because the Chinese can't get enough of it, and he's going to flog the remainder of what he's got left back to them.........

 

[TheManWithNoName]

And the glowing 'testimonials' from buyers - all typed up on the same sheet of paper, no names or identification attached. Are we supposed to believe these are authentic?

Yep, exactly the same as yesterday - when he supposedly received a letter from a lady, yet there was no reference as to who the lady was, not even a Mrs X from Cardiff, and no shot of the actual letter. Just a supposed quote on a blank white screen.

More quotes today with not a name in sight...........