Watch out Basso's about!

[LoopyLoo]

I think Nikkid has the balance about right. I eat meat and wear leather shoes etc but I draw the line at wearing fur as I think it's unnecessary for us in Western society and I believe it encourages poaching of endangered species.

I just about eat beef and chicken. Can't bring myself to eat lamb. I do wear leather.

 

[petpixie]

I'm sure Basso is able to justify what he does. I don't mean to be contentious but people are very good at justifying what suits themselves.
I guess some vegetarians wonder how people can care about animals and yet still eat them.
We hate the cruelty that the Koreans inflict on cats and dogs, but if you've seen the state of battery hens in cages and the stench of death and terror in a 'regulated' slaughterhouse, I imagine the animals are equally terrified. I think we have a propensity for self delusion and condemning what suits.

 

[AllThatGlitters]

I don't much like the idea of animals being hurt just for fashion, but I find it complex where to draw the cruelty line.

Ripping open a live ewe isn't an attractive thought, but we catch fish and let them suffocate slowly and painfully, then eat them. I've rarely heard anyone complain about that.

We buy Honora pearls. Does anyone ask whether the mollusc is damaged/killed/hurt by the process of removing the pearls? Is it fair to implant an irritant into the shell in the first place?

I buy free-range eggs. Bully for me, but in eating them, I am exploiting the hen's drive to make offspring, while denying the ability to actually make them. No pain involved, I hope, but is it fair?

I eat fruit, which was actually intended to spread the tree/plant's seed and propogate the organism. I will not excrete the seeds in any way that benefits the plant. Is that OK?

I can't see much difference between keeping, say, a rabbit farm for the skins, and keeping a sheep farm to sell the lambs...if the same standards are maintained in terms of animal treatment and humane killing.

I think we have to be very careful about the double standards we're capable of in things like this.

Doesn't make Dennis any more palatable as a human being, of course

 

[Jasper]

I despise how QVC, try and market themselves as an aspirational and ethical brand. Then let a furrier in through the back door. Over stress how everything is faux fur, and don't acknowledge his main line of business is <B>real fur</B>. At least allow the viewer to make an informed choice. They should all be forced to watch this video!

<B>WARNING viewer discretion advised. This video contains footage of animal cruelty.</B>:17:
This footage appeared in Heather Mills BBC documentary, about cat and dog fur. Although Basso (I hope) does not use cat or dog fur, and probably has higher ethics (if you can call it that) on his fur farm. In comparison with your average backstreet furrier. He is still a major figure (V.I.P Kingpin) in a hugely unregulated barbaric industry.

Battery hens aside (as that is a relevant but totally different subject) as the the last time I checked, a fur coat was not considered a necessity of life. I'm sure Basso doesn't allow his Minks, Chinchillas, Sables, Raccoons etc, the same quality of life and humane slaughter (sorry) as that offered on a free range farm!

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6vDe2R1BppM&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6vDe2R1BppM&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

 

[argeybargey]

I don't much like the idea of animals being hurt just for fashion, but I find it complex where to draw the cruelty line.

Ripping open a live ewe isn't an attractive thought, but we catch fish and let them suffocate slowly and painfully, then eat them. I've rarely heard anyone complain about that.

We buy Honora pearls. Does anyone ask whether the mollusc is damaged/killed/hurt by the process of removing the pearls? Is it fair to implant an irritant into the shell in the first place?

I buy free-range eggs. Bully for me, but in eating them, I am exploiting the hen's drive to make offspring, while denying the ability to actually make them. No pain involved, I hope, but is it fair?

I eat fruit, which was actually intended to spread the tree/plant's seed and propogate the organism. I will not excrete the seeds in any way that benefits the plant. Is that OK?

I can't see much difference between keeping, say, a rabbit farm for the skins, and keeping a sheep farm to sell the lambs...if the same standards are maintained in terms of animal treatment and humane killing.

I think we have to be very careful about the double standards we're capable of in things like this.

Doesn't make Dennis any more palatable as a human being, of course

Hi again AtG,

I really don't think you can call all these points double standards, such arguments are regularly used by people in justifying cruelty. I hasten to add that I'm sure this is not your intention but the majority of these statements, whilst technically may be correct, cannot compare with the points being discussed in the current debate re survival -v- vanity.

Don't forget that, with seeds for example, unless we all have earth closets, our own filter systems or just *hit on the ground, there's not a whole lot of alternative and we are at least planting. We do however plant more than enough fruit and vegetables to replace what we've eaten, where simply numbers are involved. Whether it's the correct type of planting or not is another matter. Seeds are in greater danger from paved over gardens than from us sending them into the sewage system.

The jury's still out on the amount of suffering involved in the fishing industry. I eat fish but not meat, purely as a matter of taste and to help with my bone disease.

I'll be honest and admit that I don't actually know much about molluscs and suffering, nor had I given it much thought until now. I do wear the ocassional pearl.

If one man kills for pleasure and another for food, surely you wouldn't really consider this double standards? So, whilst I understand your points from a technical angle, I don't think such arguments are of great assistance in the anti cruelty debate (where I believe they could add fuel to the pro fur brigade by providing a get-out) but probably are better placed in a general environmental argument.

Love
Argey x

 

[lawrenson]

Hi,

I remember when the fuss when the UK press discovered that C&A used to sell dog-fur trimmed coats. Its normal in most countries in Europe.

Of course, we're a nation of animal lovers. Thats why so many stray dogs are put down each day.

Cheers,
karen

 

[AllThatGlitters]

Survival? If it were only about survival, QVC wouldn't exist, and neither would this forum.

We purchase goods from QVC for pleasure. Are any of those goods being killed for us? Well, jury's out on pearls, not to mention coral, and I think we have to assume some of the edible goods (eg meat pies) started out with living animals.

More pertinently, a lot of the jewellery we buy from QVC is manufactured in countries where human rights are not exactly enforced. I bet a lot of the clothes are, too. We'd have to be very innocent to think that at least some of the workforce (eg in Thailand) wasn't under-age or at the very least underpaid. The presenters exclaim 'How do you do it for the price?', and we'd have to be very naive not to think that the answer wasn't 'By outsourcing manufacture to a country where people will work for peanuts'. Haven't we complained about the drop-off in quality?

If you knew that your pearl earrings had been put together by a ten-year old who'd been bought from her starving family and put to work in a factory, how would you feel? Is that better or worse than wearing a coat made from tortured animals? The fact that one of those is undeniable - we can see the coat and we know how it was made - and that the other is hidden and lost in the confusion of global trade and therefore we can turn a blind eye, doesn't really allow us to claim righteous innocence, does it?

I mean, who do we think sews on all those Quacker Factory rhinestones? Julia Roberts?

 

[Jasper]

Of course, we're a nation of animal lovers. Thats why so many stray dogs are put down each day.

Cheers,
karen

That is due to irresponsible pet owners.

 

[petpixie]

Battery hens aside (as that is a relevant but totally different subject) as the the last time I checked, a fur coat was not considered a necessity of life.

I don't want to quibble (but I'm gonna!) eggs aren't a necessity of life, or chickens or meat. If they were it would be a whole different ballgame and I wouldn't be feeling as if I'm only a heartbeat away from occupying the same amoral space as Basso.

 

[argeybargey]

Given all that argument AtG, then I guess I shouldn't be here at all as I haven't bought anything from QVC, all my clothing is very carefully sourced. Only where special items required for my specific needs, i.e. I need no buttons, wide head holes, and special shoes. PJ's, slippers, flip-flops, trousers and underwear are all purchased carefully.

I wouldn't touch a meatpie wherever it came from.

It's not reasonable really to compare child labour/poverty with animal cruelty since neither should exist, but do. However, child labour is a far too deeply complex issue to simply say "stop".

If you broaden your argument too far, it all gets lost in the jumble and not one point raised gets dealt with properly. Far better to align yourself with that which angers you more and put all your energies into that.

Given all that, I'm now going to bed. It was very interesting to hear all your views. Perhaps Graham could organise a Hyde Park Speakers Corner for us.

Argey x

 

[Jasper]

I don't want to quibble (but I'm gonna!) eggs aren't a necessity of life, or chickens or meat. If they were it would be a whole different ballgame and I wouldn't be feeling as if I'm only a heartbeat away from occupying the same amoral space as Basso.

They are far more important than a lousy fur coat. In fact they are a good source of protein.:10:

 

[petpixie]

They are far more important than a lousy fur coat. In fact they are a good source of protein.:10:

So is tofu and soya milk. :17:

 

[Jasper]

So is tofu and soya milk. :17:

'tis true, but it can be a bit of an acquired taste for your average Joe, and may stretch the budget of some below Joes.

 

[Ballerina]

Soya Milk & Tofu

So is tofu and soya milk. :17:

Love the soya milk but tofu is a food invented by Lucifer! :16:

 

[star234]

Love the soya milk but tofu is a food invented by Lucifer! :16:

Never had a truer word be said!!:35:

 

[margaret43]

I can't understand why some people continue to buy anything at all from QVC if they feel so strongly about the Basso issue. If I was enraged by a particular store, I would never ever give them my custom again. Just my opinion of course.

 

[donna255]

Quite a few members on ST.com have boycotted QVC and refuse to buy.

 

[margaret43]

That might be the case, but they're still interested in QVC otherwise they wouldn't be posting here!

 

[donna255]

Oh dear. So if they don't buy they are not allowed to join in any chat about QVC? Not even to voice their opinion? How Stalinist of you.

 

[Jasper]

That might be the case, but they're still interested in QVC otherwise they wouldn't be posting here!

Oh well each to their own, some of us are complicated. So which colour of the TSV have you gone for.:9: