Gemporia accounts - predictions?

[TheManWithNoName]

Gemporia's technique for selling "Nilamani" is disgusting. Zero mention of it being kyanite, but lots and lots of comparisons to Kashmir sapphires.

Now presenters are calling it the "heir to Kashmir". They're edging closer and closer to saying they're the same stones, but still leave themselves a microscopic gap of plausible deniability.

It's more than obvious that the intention is to flummox, bamboozle and confuse viewers with weasel words into letting buyers think they're getting sapphire and not kyanite. And I know that people have posted on here that they have seen people posting on social media thanking Gemporia for their "sapphire" purchases.

I think that the insidious and deliberate confusing of people into spending over the odds for something that has intrinsically less value then they're receiving us actually far worse than spouting outright lies. I certainly wouldn't trust Gemporia if they told me tomorrow was Wednesday.

Totally agree.

Sapphire is also very hard and durable - whereas Kyanite is very brittle.

 

[Beancounter]

TMWNN - I'm going to withdraw from this discussion because you continue to either misunderstand the points I'm making or are twisting them to go off on strange tangents about soft gemstones and gold plated metals. And now you seem to be implying I've been justifying their current prices.

Just to clarify - I was not defending the £20 cost of the 0.09 9ct gold pendant. I was only defending Gemporia against your calculation of the profit you suggested they were making when you based your figures solely on gold prices. You didn't take into account any other costs of the product at all.

With due respect, you were the only one that was oversimplifying the profits. I don't know how much that item cost to make or the profit margin Gemporia made on it but I was trying to point out that you needed to factor in a lot of other expenses that just the cost of the gold.

Of course there will be input VAT to reclaim on some purchases and overheads. However you appear to think that what they pay over in VAT on sales is reclaimed back in full from purchases so the VAT will be cancelled out and that is why you didn't need to adjust for it in your profit calculation.

The reality is that purchases should be considerably lower than sales if they want to make a profit so input VAT reclaimed will be lower than the output VAT that is payable. And what about exempt and zero rated supplies or purchases from unregistered suppliers so there is no VAT to reclaim or purchases/supplies from non UK/EC businesses? Many overheads/expenses are not subject to VAT (e.g. wages, rates, bank/loan interest).

Also the accounts, GPM, budgets and forecasts of any VAT registered business will always be calculated net of VAT, so it is actually irrelevant when calculating profit. The purpose of the VAT system is for businesses to collect a sales tax on behalf of the government and it should have no impact on the financial performance of a business other than on cashflow.

And yes, they probably will get a discount on bulk purchase of gold but only to a certain level. Gold is a commodity that is traded with set market values and no one is going to sell it below that value unless they are an idiot (or a crook).

An explanation for why they no longer go directly to mines to buy gemstones could be because there are fewer of them. They could also simply be being outbid by competitors so have little option than to buy at trade fairs but I guess you will disagree with this.

You do appear to think the worse about every aspect of Gemporia. I understand you have no trust in them or their motives and I also have had very few positive things to say about them in the last few years.

I thought I had been clear from my first post that I think Gemporia has become a dismal, unwatchable channel which has degenerated into selling a limited range of gemstones, often poor quality with abysmal presenters.

However, I also accept that there may be business/financial constraints that have forced them into how the business is now operating. That doesn't mean I think their sales tactics are right or fair - I detest the fake gem names invented to fool customers into purchasing gemstones they already own at inflated prices. I just understand why they may be doing them if they are fighting for survival.


For the record, I think their prices are ridiculously expensive for what they are now selling and that is why I no longer buy from them.

As a final comment, I was looking back at a post from a former Gemporia insider on a previous thread made about 12 months ago where they said Gemporia had a year to raise a certain amount of capital to stop Santander pulling the plug. If this was true, then it could explain why they have raised prices so much. This is not a defence of their current pricing policy but a possible explanation.

And with those final thoughts (and VAT lecture) I'm going to depart the forum and return to counting my beans.

 

[TheManWithNoName]

TMWNN - I'm going to withdraw from this discussion because you continue to either misunderstand the points I'm making or are twisting them to go off on strange tangents about soft gemstones and gold plated metals. And now you seem to be implying I've been justifying their current prices.

You don't seem to like a counter opinion and get snarky in response about it. It was YOU that mentioned gemstones such as Amblygonite, Apatite, Sphene, etc and you gave your opinion as to why Gemporia were able to obtain them so cheaply. I gave my opinion in response as to why I thought Gemporia were able to obtain them and why no other retailer was interested in them.

I find it a little odd that you think that replying to YOUR comment about stones is going off on "strange tangents". Bizarre.

I didn't say that gemstones are running out

You did. You said "many of the historic gem parcels have been exhausted". See post #24.

With due respect, you were the only one that was oversimplifying the profits. I don't know how much that item cost to make or the profit margin Gemporia made on it but I was trying to point out that you needed to factor in a lot of other expenses that just the cost of the gold.

You say I miss the point - yet you've completely missed the point yourself. Those costs are there with every single item they make. If anything, the cost of designing and producing a ring would be significantly higher than designing and producing a laser cut wafer thin gold pendant. Yet the prices don't reflect that. THAT was my point, which you totally missed.

Of course there will be input VAT to reclaim on some purchases and overheads. However you appear to think that what they pay over in VAT on sales is reclaimed back in full from purchases so the VAT will be cancelled out and that is why you didn't need to adjust for it in your profit calculation.

That's not what I said though is it. You've just completely made that up in your head. At no point did I even slightly suggest that one cancels out the other. Yet you say it's me that has "twisted" things.

So lets stick to facts instead of making up random rubbish. You made a rough calculation of how much Gemporia would receive from each item sold and said they'd have to pay VAT on each item. I wasn't disagreeing with you. However, I just pointed out that VAT was a two-way thing, and therefore SOME of the expense of that item would be able to be claimed back.

An explanation for why they no longer go directly to mines to buy gemstones could be because there are fewer of them. They could also simply be being outbid by competitors so have little option than to buy at trade fairs but I guess you will disagree with this.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing because nobody other than Gemporia knows their reason for opting for trade shows over mines. You have your opinion as to why - I have my opinion as to why. We could both be right. We could both be wrong. We could both be partially right or wrong. But thank you for your pointless snarky comment aimed as though you think I'm going to disagree with you just for the sake of it.

I've actually agreed with you on a lot of things. You just don't seem to take too well to the things that I have a differing opinion on.

You do appear to think the worse about every aspect of Gemporia.

Correct. Most of us do. That's why we're here - so I'm struggling to see the point your making, other than you're trying to have another snarky dig.

I have a very strong dislike of companies that feel the need to tell lies, mislead, and use every trick in the book to try to get people to part with their money.

I thought I had been clear from my first post that I think Gemporia has become a dismal, unwatchable channel which has degenerated into selling a limited range of gemstones, often poor quality with abysmal presenters.

You did. I haven't said otherwise.

For the record, I think their prices are ridiculously expensive for what they are now selling and that is why I no longer buy from them.

So despite seemingly taking the hump over some of my comments, we're actually in agreement on this. Bizarre.

As a final comment, I was looking back at a post from a former Gemporia insider on a previous thread made about 12 months ago where they said Gemporia had a year to raise a certain amount of capital to stop Santander pulling the plug. If this was true, then it could explain why they have raised prices so much. This is not a defence of their current pricing policy but a possible explanation.

I literally said this on this very forum. I simply added more to it by mentioning the inconstancy in their pricing structure, and flaws in their business model. However, you seem to see that as disagreeing with you.

I'm going to depart the forum and return to counting my beans.

Probably for the best if you're going to spit your dummy out or have snarky digs when someone offers a differing opinion. That's what forums are for - discussion, differing opinions and looking at things from someone else's perspective.

I haven't said you're right. I haven't said you're wrong. I've just offered MY thoughts on Gemporia in response to yours and expanded on a couple of things. It really is as simple as that.

Many of us have differing opinions on here. We don't even think anything of it and just carry on as normal.

 

[Beancounter]

I have to make one final post as a response to TMWNN's latest post due to the insults thrown at me.

TMWNN:

I believe all my posts have been considered and logical, stating facts and also suggesting possible explanations as to why the channel is in it's current state & why I think it is unlikely to recover.

I only mentioned amblygonite, apatite and sphene as examples of the stones Gems TV introduced the viewing public to and how they helped build the business as people wanted to collect unusual stones they couldn't buy on the high street.

You then replied with points about why calcite and flourite shouldn't be set in jewellery. That was a tangent and irrelevant to my post.

In your last post you have accused me of "making up random rubbish", making "a pointless snarky comment" and other "snarky digs" and completely making things up in my head.

With regard to spitting my dummy out - Pot, kettle and black.

I joined this forum to provide factual information as to when the 2024 accounts will be available to view at Companies House as you had mistakenly started this thread by stating that they were due at the end of March. Your assumptions of the profit they were making on the £20 pendant was also wrong so I also tried to point out what you had failed to take into account.

You replied with points about gold plated jewellery - another tangent - plus you made inaccurate and vague statements about VAT and overhead costs which I tried to clarify and correct in my last post.


You have quoted my post which suggested possible explanations as to why they are not buying directly from mines and then written directly underneath ".........you have your opinion as to why......". Possible explanations are not the same as my opinion yet you keep referring to them as my opinions.

You appear to be a dominant contributor to the Gemporia threads on this forum and clearly invest a large amount of your time policing the channel and trying to hold them to account.

I agree with the majority of what you write and applaud you for having the patience to report them to the ASA. I tried and got nowhere with the ASA.

However, I would suggest that you consider how you sometimes respond to other people's posts - I maybe have misinterpreted your tone - sometimes you should just acknowledge when you are wrong.

You are right that forums are for people to express opposing opinions and views - yet you aggressively respond and try to shut down anyone that challenges your views. Maybe you are not aware that you are doing it?

I don't appreciate the insults you have made in your last reply about my posts but it has vindicated my decision that this forum is not somewhere I want to participate.

 

[user 17461]

Gemporia's technique for selling "Nilamani" is disgusting. Zero mention of it being kyanite, but lots and lots of comparisons to Kashmir sapphires.

Now presenters are calling it the "heir to Kashmir". They're edging closer and closer to saying they're the same stones, but still leave themselves a microscopic gap of plausible deniability.

It's more than obvious that the intention is to flummox, bamboozle and confuse viewers with weasel words into letting buyers think they're getting sapphire and not kyanite. And I know that people have posted on here that they have seen people posting on social media thanking Gemporia for their "sapphire" purchases.

I think that the insidious and deliberate confusing of people into spending over the odds for something that has intrinsically less value then they're receiving us actually far worse than spouting outright lies. I certainly wouldn't trust Gemporia if they told me tomorrow was Wednesday.

Sorry! My last paragraph looks like it was dictated by Lindsay Carr

What I was possibly trying to say (I've slept since then), is that the intentional and deliberate bamboozling of customers into buying something worth far less than what presenters are almost calling it, ie. Kashmir sapphire, is worse than just lying and calling it sapphire.

Especially when most of Gemporia's viewers appear to be ladies of a more mature age.

 

[user 17461]

Maybe it's time to just stop discussing Gemporia's most recent financials until there's actually something concrete to debate?

It's not like me to be the adult in the room I know, and I am extremely sorry about it. But tearing into one another doesn't solve anything.

And if I am honest, it doesn't make me want to read more about anything you've said. Surely there's a way to get your points across to one another in a less confrontational manner?

And if you can't, then maybe you should just stop talking to one another. As exciting as this thread has become, I don't come here to see WWIII breaking out.

 

[TheManWithNoName]

You then replied with points about why calcite and flourite shouldn't be set in jewellery. That was a tangent and irrelevant to my post.

I must have missed the small print in the rules when I signed up to this forum that said that you can't expand on anything and that you must only respond to the specific points that the person you're quoting said.

In your last post you have accused me of "making up random rubbish", making "a pointless snarky comment" and other "snarky digs" and completely making things up in my head.

Correct. I did.

I joined this forum to provide factual information as to when the 2024 accounts will be available to view at Companies House as you had mistakenly started this thread by stating that they were due at the end of March. Your assumptions of the profit they were making on the £20 pendant was also wrong so I also tried to point out what you had failed to take into account.

I'm not an accountant - you are the one that claims to be. Despite that, you claimed VAT is 1/6th of the final price. It isn't. It's 1/5th.

Before you try to be clever about pulling up people for 'mistakes', and claim to be providing 'facts', you might want to make sure your own information is correct before pulling other people up about theirs.

However, I would suggest that you consider how you sometimes respond to other people's posts - I maybe have misinterpreted your tone - sometimes you should just acknowledge when you are wrong.

You are right that forums are for people to express opposing opinions and views - yet you aggressively respond and try to shut down anyone that challenges your views.

Have you thought about following your own 'advice'?

I don't appreciate the insults you have made in your last reply about my posts but it has vindicated my decision that this forum is not somewhere I want to participate.

They're not insults. They're accurate observations.

This forum is not somewhere I want to participate.

You said that yesterday. So no doubt we'll see you this afternoon then when you come back with your final of final responses.

 

[TheManWithNoName]

Surely there's a way to get your points across to one another in a less confrontational manner?

To be fair, I was having a normal discussion until Beancounter got the hump.

My posts are generally a combination of over-exaggerated humour and fairly reasonable posts - but when someone goes for the throat, I will bite back - hard - particularly when that person is being a hypocrite.

 

[user 17461]

To be fair, I was having a normal discussion until Beancounter got the hump.

My posts are generally a combination of over-exaggerated humour and fairly reasonable posts - but when someone goes for the throat, I will bite back - hard - particularly when that person is being a hypocrite.

I'm not taking sides.

But as a neutral third party, I much prefer seeing people having a go at selly telly channels for the crap they pull. Or try to pull.Watching fellow forum members rabidly attack one another isn't as fun as you might assume.

And while I am replying to your response to my post, I am talking to both you and Beancounter.

Toddlers use the expression "But they started it!" as an excuse for their part in a fight. Adults can choose to walk away. And neither of you chose to do just that.

 

[Ant7t]

Gemporia's technique for selling "Nilamani" is disgusting. Zero mention of it being kyanite, but lots and lots of comparisons to Kashmir sapphires.

Now presenters are calling it the "heir to Kashmir". They're edging closer and closer to saying they're the same stones, but still leave themselves a microscopic gap of plausible deniability.

It's more than obvious that the intention is to flummox, bamboozle and confuse viewers with weasel words into letting buyers think they're getting sapphire and not kyanite. And I know that people have posted on here that they have seen people posting on social media thanking Gemporia for their "sapphire" purchases.

I think that the insidious and deliberate confusing of people into spending over the odds for something that has intrinsically less value then they're receiving us actually far worse than spouting outright lies. I certainly wouldn't trust Gemporia if they told me tomorrow was Wednesday.

When they first got it, they did say it was Kyanite and the term Nilamani was used by the locals 'equating' it to "looking like" sapphire in colour. But as you say, they don't mention that now. The thing is, they can't really assume that the customer base know it isn't sapphire, after all they are forever putting up video clips for the 'new buyer' and 'how to play' with 'if you're new here'. That becomes tiresome for the 'old stock' of customers, (those that are left). BUT, rarely now do they include the Nilamani clip in that to explain the difference. I hope that's not too rambly and you get what I'm meaning to say

 

[user 17461]

When they first got it, they did say it was Kyanite and the term Nilamani was used by the locals 'equating' it to "looking like" sapphire in colour. But as you say, they don't mention that now. The thing is, they can't really assume that the customer base know it isn't sapphire, after all they are forever putting up video clips for the 'new buyer' and 'how to play' with 'if you're new here'. That becomes tiresome for the 'old stock' of customers, (those that are left). BUT, rarely now do they include the Nilamani clip in that to explain the difference. I hope that's not too rambly and you get what I'm meaning to say

I get what you're saying!

Gemporia's presenters love to spout off about how they want to educate viewers, which is supposedly the reason behind Troff's 50 minute lectures. But it's strange that they don't want to explicitly state what Nilamani is.

Especially when, as you say, they have VT that can do that. And when presenters like Ellis love going to VT every 5 minutes or so in their shows, you have to wonder why that can't be shown.

It's disgraceful.

 

[Ant7t]

I get what you're saying!

Gemporia's presenters love to spout off about how they want to educate viewers, which is supposedly the reason behind Troff's 50 minute lectures. But it's strange that they don't want to explicitly state what Nilamani is.

Especially when, as you say, they have VT that can do that. And when presenters like Ellis love going to VT every 5 minutes or so in their shows, you have to wonder why that can't be shown.

It's disgraceful.

And that is one reason I initially watched Gems TV before I became a buyer. It was interesting and informative. They used to have those DVDs of their Mines visits and 'break them up' into little VT segments whenever they played a 'stone'. You learnt stuff. Even if you didn't buy.

The beloved DT lectures probably were interesting to begin with, but same items, same lectures, same stories. Couldn't they just leave that in the online 'library' they have onsite? As I said elsewhere: 'this is that and that is this' and if you want to learn more go here. Much easier that way. And you might actually take it in. Your own pace, not bombarded with it.

 

[historymystery]

This is why I think Gemporia are doomed under their current ownership because they've kind of trapped themselves. It is clear that they have little stock other than Jadeite, Pearls and Agates, all set into plated/'gold tone' crap.

If this is the reason why Dave Troth is on all the time, then they have problems because looking at the feedback online, most people have stopped tuning into Gemporia because:

a) They're sick of seeing Jade and Pearls every day.
b) They're sick of seeing Dave Troth.

it sounds as though they need both of these to survive - yet they're also the two things that are also driving customers away.

This is where, in my opinion, the third problem comes in:

Because they have fewer customers, and they have a huge loan to pay back, they're having to hike their prices up to counter for the loss of income from a wide customer base.

This has alienated customers further because they're not liking the higher prices for what I, and a lot of others, feel are inferior products these days.

Which leaves the inevitable question - how do Gemporia get out of this cycle? Personally, under its current leadership, I don't think they can.

As I've said a few times on here, I don't think that Gemporia can survive without new owners. It needs new ideas, new leadership, an overhaul of their business model, and a complete overhaul of the 'on-air format' too - with most of the presenters needing to be given their P45 - starting with Jess Foley and Lindsey Carr. Neither of them are natural TV presenters. Neither of them have any knowledge (or if they do, they never share it with viewers), and both are completely out of their depth.

Ellis has become 'stale' and turned into one of the worst for misleading on the channel. Adina has also fallen into giving out dubious claims and dodgy price comparisons far too often too. Angeline comes across as a bit too forward and aggressive. Hattie drives people round the bend with her erratic and shouty ways. Even Rosie Wells has become unwatchable.

There's nothing about the channel that is remotely entertaining, fun or a pleasure to watch these days.

Neither of them have any knowledge (or if they do, they never share it with viewers),

I get what you're saying!

Gemporia's presenters love to spout off about how they want to educate viewers, which is supposedly the reason behind Troff's 50 minute lectures. But it's strange that they don't want to explicitly state what Nilamani is.

Especially when, as you say, they have VT that can do that. And when presenters like Ellis love going to VT every 5 minutes or so in their shows, you have to wonder why that can't be shown.

It's disgraceful.

What the Gemporia presenters should say is that they want to educate viewers, but only with their version of the truth. They should perhaps also say that their version may change from day to day, so other versions are also perfectly acceptable.

GIA trained? Qualified? Er....OK, then.

 

[Ant7t]

GIA trained? Qualified? Er....OK, then.

I must be in a picky mood today. I wonder if the GIA 'know' they are using their name in vain? As in, being trained by them etc, dropping their name at the end of the presenters names and yet, having outdated learning, which it seems, and using the GIA to polish their tarnished halos, as it were. We are part of the GIA kinda thing, when really they aren't.

 

[historymystery]

Absolutely this, Beancounter & OrangeLady. Gemporia have totally not 'read the room' - with the cost of living increases people just haven't got the money to keep on buying jewellery. Factor in that many of their original customers have acquired all the jewellery they wanted years ago, when precious metals were cheaper and (as said) the more unusual, but very attractive stones were freely available - in addition, many of the older customers are probably as fed-up as we all are of the constant flogging of jade and pearls, the wafer-thin metal, poor quality of the settings and 'gold tone'. They won't pay high prices for crap because they know a bit about what they are buying, and how the quality has gone down the Swanee.

With the ever-increasing cost of the supermarket shop and rising bills for utilities, etc. Gemporia have stuck their heads firmly in the sand. No vision, no innovation, no forward planning. Their only answer is to stick Dave Troth on to give us the dictator's speech ad infinitum.

 

[historymystery]

What's going on with the big loan they took out from Santander?

Sparkling future ahead for Gemporia Partnership following funding from Santander UK | Santander UK

www.santander.co.uk

That looks like one heck of a millstone.

Someone mentioned that they appear to be selling stones they would have rejected before. I agree, I got some real stinkers I had to send back, verging on insult with cracked gems, missing stones, mismatched colours. They tend respond to reviewers complaining about that sort of thing that they'll feed it back to the warehouse team. I very much doubt anyone in the warehouse even glances at some of the things they send out if they're even constantly being given the same 'feedback,' they just hope you can't be bothered to send it back.

My returns rate was very low, mostly because I didn't buy pricey pieces and just wanted things that looked pretty, so if I sent something back, it was truly atrocious. The obvious problems with the pieces were not difficult to spot, so it annoyed the heck of out me that I was doubly inconvenienced, first by being sent crap, and then having to go out and send the piece back and wait (far too long) for a refund or replacement. "You're welcome to send it back," they say. I don't have 'Gemporia Quality Control' on my LinkedIn, shouldn't be my job, not getting paid, sort yerselves out. Occasionally, things slip through the net, but I went from sending about one piece back in a year to something like three in three months, glaringly obvious flaws. I felt like someone who gets a coin stuck in a vending machine and then puts in another coin to dislodge the first one - a prize mug.

I don't think the quality control was ever much cop, to be honest - but now it's probably non-existent because they regard 'checking' as a waste of resources. They'll just hope they don't get too many coming back, but whilst that's an OK surmise if the customer has bought something for a few quid and can't be bothered to send it back, how many people out there will wipe off hundreds of pounds for a crap item with chipped diamonds or a broken mount?

 

[historymystery]

I must be in a picky mood today. I wonder if the GIA 'know' they are using their name in vain? As in, being trained by them etc, dropping their name at the end of the presenters names and yet, having outdated learning, which it seems, and using the GIA to polish their tarnished halos, as it were. We are part of the GIA kinda thing, when really they aren't.

Confess I know virtually nothing about the GIA - I'm wondering whether the accreditation needs to be kept up by regular testing (bit like Gas accredited plumbers have to do)? Or do they just sit the exam. and so long as they pass it, that's it. Assuming, of course, that the person HAS passed the exam....??

 

[Ant7t]

Confess I know virtually nothing about the GIA - I'm wondering whether the accreditation needs to be kept up by regular testing (bit like Gas accredited plumbers have to do)? Or do they just sit the exam. and so long as they pass it, that's it. Assuming, of course, that the person HAS passed the exam....??

I always thought it was an ongoing thing. Updated with new discoveries / new info etc.

 

[Sazza]

Reminder to all, everyone has their opinion and not everyone will agree with yours, that's life!!! Please don't attack other members because they see things differently to you, we are adults, we can agree to disagree.

 

[TheManWithNoName]

When they first got it, they did say it was Kyanite and the term Nilamani was used by the locals 'equating' it to "looking like" sapphire in colour. But as you say, they don't mention that now. The thing is, they can't really assume that the customer base know it isn't sapphire, after all they are forever putting up video clips for the 'new buyer' and 'how to play' with 'if you're new here'. That becomes tiresome for the 'old stock' of customers, (those that are left). BUT, rarely now do they include the Nilamani clip in that to explain the difference. I hope that's not too rambly and you get what I'm meaning to say

Exactly this. They go so in depth with the discussions of Sapphire that even one of their own presenters genuinely thought Nilamani was Sapphire. Elena Stephens was genuinely surprised when it was brought to her attention.