q or the general election?

[Julius]

The woman has learning difficulties Vienna says, maybe she thinks that's all she's good for, maybe she has a violent partner and she's beaten into having sex, who knows, I can't believe what I'm reading here, but let's just hope you never fall in to a position were one day people can be insulting to you, wishing you the worse or that you should have your kids, if you've got any, taken off you and judging you hey?!

I'm sorry but 12 children don't arrive by accident! And as for the men who impregnated her, they ought to be castrated. I don't feel sorry for her or for them, I feel sorry for the kids. I know it might sound harsh but some people really shouldn't be allowed to be parents! Nobody can underestimate the responsibility that comes with bringing a life into this world. I may have slightly more sympathy for the woman than for the men, (and you can bet it will almost certainly be "men" as in plural) as you can almost guarantee that they got away with nothing while she was left juggling the babies. Even so, 12 is too many mistakes. Sterilise her and put her in a workhouse, and castrate the men, or make them pay up. You can bet anything that she will pass on her standards, or lack thereof, to her children, many of whom will likely go forth and multiply like bacteria on an agar plate. If she couldn't think to use contraception or go with a man who would, it says very little for her intelligence. I'm sorry I'm quite right-wing on such things. She may well be capable of loving her children. I'm not saying she's the most evil person in the world, but she's certainly not the most responsible, and she is unleashing a whole lot of lifelong suffering due to her selfish desire to indulge in unprotected sex.

 

[boffy]

she has learning difficulties. shes married to the childrens father. the children to have learning difficulties. speech and some have behavioural issues. they are quite a happy family but things have got really bad with the cuts. what do you do. i suppose years ago she would have been sterilised.

they were looked after at thier local school but being moved on again is upsetting the kids. its made me a bit sad for them all

 

[Brissles]

I certainly don't agree with a lot of what you have said Julius, but I'm not going to 'rant' at you. Its your opinion and we all have that right on here - regardless what many may think.

However, I wrote earlier about the need for contraception, so won't re-iterate myself, but the rise in population in this country is not wholly due to immigration but in the rise of the birth rate - and dependant on which studies you read, much is made of the greater rise in births to immigrant women. Regardless of what politics you follow, this cannot be ignored.

 

[Weathergirl]

I know from my job that the poor parenting that gives rise to care proceedings is on the whole down to social deprivation in the white, UK "underclass" (I struggle to refer to these parents by the misnomer "working class".) On the whole economic migrants from European countries, whilst they may increase the birth rate, are hard-working and look after their children. There are immigrants from non-european countries who have cultural differences which conflict with how you or I would discipline our children. By far the most cases of care proceedings in this country arise out of chronic neglect, drug and alcohol misuse, domestic violence. It is far too easy, and very short sighted, to blame the birth rate and in turn, immigration, for the problem. The more unusual and complex cases such as non-accidental injury, sexual abuse, etc will always be there but they are, really and truly the minority of cases. Whilst in my job I see that side of life a lot, it really is not that common. Most people love and protect their children, I truly believe that the silent majority do.

 

[boffy]

i think it very odd that the governments know how many people are comming to britain and make no provision for them. its a scandal that we need to build millions of home to cover the hundreds of thousands that were sold off under right to buy. i have to wonder why any of the political parties want the job but when elected do very little. the housing situation in paticularly in london is scandalous.

 

[Julius]

You might think someone from my background (my mother was a single parent and my father a criminal - I grew up in a slum) would be a bit more tolerant or understanding but I'm not. It takes two people to create a human life. If those two brains between them lack the intelligence to use some form of contraception and create 12 children yes TWELVE children they can ill afford, it suggests they have the collective IQ of an amoeba. Social Services should have intervened long ago to prevent this from happening. This woman may indeed have learning difficulties, I accept that, and I also accept that she will have an instinct to procreate - that is a fairly common desire in any species, but don't you think she would have made the connection between sexual intercourse and having a baby after she popped out twelve brats. She must have been popping them out like a popcorn machine! The more offspring this woman has, her financial and, practical and emotional resources will become more stretched than her uterus. And who picks up the tab? The taxpayer! It's just a shame there isn't some test people have to pass before being allowed to have children. We have to pass a test to drive a car, because it's potentially dangerous, yet we are allow do partake in a bit of the old in-out, in-out without putting something on the end of it, and BAM! A baby!
I understand that this woman may not be possessed of the same capabilties as me in certain areas, but you think she'd stop getting up the duff after a few pregnancies. Yet 12 kids later on and still the penny hasn't dropped. I think it's awful. I know how it was for me, growing up, and now I am older I realise the sacrifices my mother made for me, for which I never thanked her. At least I had a brain and could work myself out of poverty. I can only begin to imagine what those kids must be going through. The odds are certainly not stacked in their favour. The mother, I have very little sympathy for, I'm afraid.

 

[Brissles]

Actually Weathergirl I am NOT in any way short sighted, but I do take the long and realistic view of the birth rate consequences on services and housing.

I agree with Boffy about the sell off of council houses. I was in the estate agency business in the 70's (so I DO know what I'm talking about here, as someone said earlier, 'know your facts, well I DO actually!), and the boom period was after the conditional 5 year period was up after the 'right to buy' (it changed to 3 years later on), when tenants/owners sold their properties on for a profit. Despite being in the business I was very much against the wholesale sell off of council housing because it was clearly obvious that future generations would have nowhere to live - my prophecy came true big time ! Not only that, but at the time the councils made huge profits from the sell offs, and much was made at the time as to where these millions of pounds went to - certainly not in replenishing the housing stock that's for sure. Council housing was gradually built over time, but as soon as a tenant became eligible to buy, again they were sold off. So I for one am not in the least surprised there is such a shortage for the last and this generation.

 

[maymorganlondon]

We had a vote a referendum on introducing PR and it was well and truly kicked into the long grass.
Our local MP is a Conservative, answers all his emails with proper letters and stands outside the local Sainsbury's once a month to be available to his constituents. For that reason I will vote for him and the fact our last Labour MP fiddled his expenses big time.

Actually the referendum ended up being for AV - which is the alternative vote. This is not true proportional representation but a compromise which was not what the Lib Dems had actually wanted the vote to be about.

Ironically, I've heard voting commentators saying that the Tories would have benefited if the Lib Dems had won that one...

 

[Julius]

Actually Weathergirl I am NOT in any way short sighted, but I do take the long and realistic view of the birth rate consequences on services and housing.

I agree with Boffy about the sell off of council houses. I was in the estate agency business in the 70's (so I DO know what I'm talking about here, as someone said earlier, 'know your facts, well I DO actually!), and the boom period was after the conditional 5 year period was up after the 'right to buy' (it changed to 3 years later on), when tenants/owners sold their properties on for a profit. Despite being in the business I was very much against the wholesale sell off of council housing because it was clearly obvious that future generations would have nowhere to live - my prophecy came true big time ! Not only that, but at the time the councils made huge profits from the sell offs, and much was made at the time as to where these millions of pounds went to - certainly not in replenishing the housing stock that's for sure. Council housing was gradually built over time, but as soon as a tenant became eligible to buy, again they were sold off. So I for one am not in the least surprised there is such a shortage for the last and this generation.

Your are right, Brissles. Also I guess the birth rate compounds over time. Another factor is house prices. We so readily accept house price inflation as a good thing, because those who bought a house when prices were cheaper have made a theoretical profit. Yet when you look at the multiple one has to borrow to buy a place. If I wanted to buy a fairly basic studio flat in London I'd need to borrow about ten times my annual salary (10 x £24,000) although I am lucky enough to own a small bungalow on the Isle of Wight, which I could sell for about £65,000, I'd rather not buy at these inflated prices and keep my house.

 

[boffy]

so we have added problems. cheap housing in short supply. immigration/migration and an overheated private sector both in buying or renting. not one single party has even tried to address the time bomb ticking. both are really relying on the private sector so we are technically going backwards in time to slum landlords ( in some cases) and lack of security for poor families. to add insult to injury our loving tory government are squeezing families whose wages cant even make a tiny dent in their housing costs. i am in fear for the future. housing is a basic right we all need somewhere to live. but the tories think if your poor you should be shunted around the country.

 

[Tiddlywinks]

I bet even someone with 'mild learning difficulties' would stop producing more children if child benefit were only paid for the first two and then no more.

I'm all for taking care of those less able BUT those who choose to have large families even though they are not working (never have and never will) should not be encouraged with a pay-per-child benefit system.

I have friends who have always worked, had two incomes, but still had to limit their family size according to their means - living in the South East landed them with huge mortgages, council tax, higher living costs for going out etc YET they are forced to sub the feckless who reproduce without a care in the world, safe in the knowledge that they will get more benefits.... how is that fair?

 

[boffy]

well thats not going to happen anymore. the cap will ensure that larger families will have nowhere to live and no money to feed thier children. i think it should have all been done retrospective. not many people have 12 children these days. this paticular woman and and the children like i said have problems. more than likey some wont ever hold down a job.

they are still humans and a society is judged by the way it looks after the less fortunate

 

[Brissles]

so we have added problems. cheap housing in short supply. immigration/migration and an overheated private sector both in buying or renting. not one single party has even tried to address the time bomb ticking. both are really relying on the private sector so we are technically going backwards in time to slum landlords ( in some cases) and lack of security for poor families. to add insult to injury our loving tory government are squeezing families whose wages cant even make a tiny dent in their housing costs. i am in fear for the future. housing is a basic right we all need somewhere to live. but the tories think if your poor you should be shunted around the country.

This is all very true. Ticking time bomb is a good description. We are sleep walking into a situation that nothing is being done about. More Buy to Let landlords and developers, and older 'children' not leaving home until middle age, a growing population that sees no sign of slowing down, and a growing elderly population; that's not being addressed or even spoke about by any of the parties. We now have the awful situation of those people crossing the Mediterranean to get to Europe; compassionate we may be, BUT at the rate Africa is emptying there will be hordes (yes I use that word) gathering on the coast of France trying to get to the UK, and then what ? (l'm at a loss as to why they are paying Traffikers thousands of pounds for a treacherous journey, when they could go to South Africa - perhaps someone could explain.)

 

[Julius]

I bet even someone with 'mild learning difficulties' would stop producing more children if child benefit were only paid for the first two and then no more.

I'm all for taking care of those less able BUT those who choose to have large families even though they are not working (never have and never will) should not be encouraged with a pay-per-child benefit system.

I have friends who have always worked, had two incomes, but still had to limit their family size according to their means - living in the South East landed them with huge mortgages, council tax, higher living costs for going out etc YET they are forced to sub the feckless who reproduce without a care in the world, safe in the knowledge that they will get more benefits.... how is that fair?

12 children suggests more than mild learning difficulties, it suggests ****** stupid! Where do we draw the line? 15 children? 20? More? I might understand people procreating in such a way in undeveloped countries, but here in England it just seems even more wrong. Are this woman and her partner so dim that they don't realise the connection between copulation and pregnancy / childbirth? Just popping out children with no resources to care for them is irresponsible towards the children, society and the planet as a whole. I care very little for the woman, but the kids I feel incredibly sorry for. They didn't get to pick their parents. Unfortunately we live in a society that is so soft it's lacking in order, structure. I suppose we have to respect that woman's human rights, but what about the rights of the kids? What chance do they stand? She is inflicting up to 1000 years of human suffering. If she cannot be educated she should be sterilised. I know it's horrible, it's the sort of thing we would do to an animal, but really isn't it in her best interests? Then she can have all the sex she likes without risk of increasing the burden she is placing on society. I just feel a tough approach is needed for many of society's ills. That fat man reported in the media recently, he can't go out and spends hundreds of pounds on having takeaways delivered. Stop his benefits! Let him die! The care workers who are feeding him that rubbish are slowly killing him. If he has the instinct for survival he will sort himself out. If he doesn't, TOUGH. I don't want MY MONEY paying for him to live that lifestyle.

 

[Sazza]

This thread has run it's course, the same comments/opinions are being repeated over and over and it is making for uncomfortable reading now!!!

If you wish to discuss the election then do so in the The Drop but please keep it civil!

THREAD CLOSED!