Natural and Untreated Gemstones
- Thread starter Sacha
- Start date
Help Support ShoppingTelly:
Meeshoo
Registered Shopper
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 946
This is just a general treatment update and not meant to reflect on GemsTV or any of the products sold by them:
Earlier on this year a Garnet was tested and found to be filled. Previously thought to be untreated you now shouldn't believe that to be so. The filling can be done for less than a penny and turns a gem into a beautiful marketable gemstone BUT should be disclosed. Material from a number of Ebay sellers and two US dealers have been tested and proved to be filled.
In addition, there is evidence of blue tourmaline (marketed as Paraiba) undergoing a "dyefusion" process. http://www.yourgemologist.com/ISGForumsBoard/showthread.php?t=5036
Furthermore, fake Emeralds (sillimanite - aka fibrolite) have also shown up at Gemlab Gemological Lab being sold as natural and untreated gemstones.
In short? Don't make any assumptions.
Earlier on this year a Garnet was tested and found to be filled. Previously thought to be untreated you now shouldn't believe that to be so. The filling can be done for less than a penny and turns a gem into a beautiful marketable gemstone BUT should be disclosed. Material from a number of Ebay sellers and two US dealers have been tested and proved to be filled.
In addition, there is evidence of blue tourmaline (marketed as Paraiba) undergoing a "dyefusion" process. http://www.yourgemologist.com/ISGForumsBoard/showthread.php?t=5036
Furthermore, fake Emeralds (sillimanite - aka fibrolite) have also shown up at Gemlab Gemological Lab being sold as natural and untreated gemstones.
In short? Don't make any assumptions.
Sapphireblue
Registered Shopper
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2009
- Messages
- 244
Thank you for this post.
I am a very worried about my three PB that I purchased from Gems TV I asked Gems a few months ago to confirm status of my PT and they said that they are natural.
The article is inferring that African PT could be viewed as fakes? The only PT are found in Brazil. Is this right? How can I find if I have purchased a "dyefusion" treated tourmaline. Do you have any suggestions of gem experts that I could contact. I paid several thousands of pounds for a sky blue, teal blue and neon blue/green rings.
Kind regards, Sapphireblue
I am a very worried about my three PB that I purchased from Gems TV I asked Gems a few months ago to confirm status of my PT and they said that they are natural.
The article is inferring that African PT could be viewed as fakes? The only PT are found in Brazil. Is this right? How can I find if I have purchased a "dyefusion" treated tourmaline. Do you have any suggestions of gem experts that I could contact. I paid several thousands of pounds for a sky blue, teal blue and neon blue/green rings.
Kind regards, Sapphireblue
gemcherub
Registered Shopper
I also questioned my PT's and was told they were heated only.
P
Pinkpussycat
Guest Shopper
Me too. :emo:
And there I was gazing lovingly at my pretty rhodolite garnet (bargain from gems 29.99 in gold) and my irn bru tangerine garnet thinking well at least you are natural but now may have to doubt them as well!?It seems the more i know the less I know or just become more confused i will take comfort that even if there is a possibility they have been tampered with that considering they are gold they were still a bargain.And what about my three ilianas bought from TJC? short of setting up a lab at home and undergoing an intensive gemology testing course how can one tell? Do the sellers including the stores selling to us even know what they are getting from their buyers? What a minefield ive decided the only way for me to cope is to go in to denial mode and pretend that everything i have is as it should be, then again could it be those dyed agate beads I bought for 9.99 from TJC could they be glass.......?
Sapphireblue
Registered Shopper
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2009
- Messages
- 244
Hi Emerald,
I wish I could just let this go and hope for the best. I am great believer that you pay for what you get. If I pay £9.99 for beads or jewellery, I am not expecting much however if I pay several thousands of pounds for a single item I cannot hope for the best. I wish I was so rich that I am not bothered at all.
I have to know and I think other forum members who have purchased very expensive or less expensive items will want to know that their jewellery is "as described" on the authenticity card and they have not been misled in any way. I have been wondering how Gems has been able to sell so many cheap PT in last few months
The PT was a birthday present from my husband and I am really upset to think that such a lot of money has been spent for what could turn out to be a fake tourmaline.
I will be writing to Gems to ask for clarification. If I need to, I will send my rings to an expert for analysis.
Sapphireblue
I wish I could just let this go and hope for the best. I am great believer that you pay for what you get. If I pay £9.99 for beads or jewellery, I am not expecting much however if I pay several thousands of pounds for a single item I cannot hope for the best. I wish I was so rich that I am not bothered at all.
I have to know and I think other forum members who have purchased very expensive or less expensive items will want to know that their jewellery is "as described" on the authenticity card and they have not been misled in any way. I have been wondering how Gems has been able to sell so many cheap PT in last few months
The PT was a birthday present from my husband and I am really upset to think that such a lot of money has been spent for what could turn out to be a fake tourmaline.
I will be writing to Gems to ask for clarification. If I need to, I will send my rings to an expert for analysis.
Sapphireblue
P
Pinkpussycat
Guest Shopper
I can totally understand where you are coming from over these concerns about your PT SB. I have the same concerns despite GEMSTV's previous statement that their PT's had only been heat treated but who knows if the stones were genuine PTs anyway?? Do they really know?? Also who is now responsible if your (or anybody else's) gem turn out to be fake?? GEMSTV as was does not exist now so who would redress this situation if it arises??
Hi Sapphireblue
Sorry I didnt mean to be trite about the subject of treatments and of course you are right when a person spends a few pounds on a piece its hardly the same as thousands the reason it came to mind was that when the other half saw my beads he asked if they were glass whereupon I showed him my authenticity card and explained how cold and heavy they felt compared to glass.When it comes to the cheaper end stuff I find TJC often cheaper than the plastic stuff in the shops .I too have purchased 3 PT rings one from Gems and two from TJC however mine were in the hundreds not thousands like yours and can see why you are very concerned.Its all very confusing a while back I went on a link that Meeshoo provided and to be honest after reading it thought that one of rings lends itself more to the description of cuprian rather than Paraiba.I had one of the others on at a night out a while ago and (sad git that I am) was delighted when someone was admiring it and asked "is it green is it blue or turquoise colour" and my sister doesnt like it as she thinks it looks a fake colour.After reading the article about dyed paraibas you have to wonder how many are in the market and are companies unwittingly buying them.This forum has really educated me but as I said before the more I know the less I understand.I hope you get reassurance on your items because when paying thousands it really should be what it says on the tin.
Sorry I didnt mean to be trite about the subject of treatments and of course you are right when a person spends a few pounds on a piece its hardly the same as thousands the reason it came to mind was that when the other half saw my beads he asked if they were glass whereupon I showed him my authenticity card and explained how cold and heavy they felt compared to glass.When it comes to the cheaper end stuff I find TJC often cheaper than the plastic stuff in the shops .I too have purchased 3 PT rings one from Gems and two from TJC however mine were in the hundreds not thousands like yours and can see why you are very concerned.Its all very confusing a while back I went on a link that Meeshoo provided and to be honest after reading it thought that one of rings lends itself more to the description of cuprian rather than Paraiba.I had one of the others on at a night out a while ago and (sad git that I am) was delighted when someone was admiring it and asked "is it green is it blue or turquoise colour" and my sister doesnt like it as she thinks it looks a fake colour.After reading the article about dyed paraibas you have to wonder how many are in the market and are companies unwittingly buying them.This forum has really educated me but as I said before the more I know the less I understand.I hope you get reassurance on your items because when paying thousands it really should be what it says on the tin.
Meeshoo
Registered Shopper
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 946
Ok ....... if you love your gems and feel you paid a fair price AND have confirmation from GemsTV that they are heated only then please leave it at that. If they had any information to suggest otherwise I'm very sure they would have told you. The only time they could be wrong is if they had been duped also by the seller. They've come clean about so many things in the last year that there's no reason why they should have lied and as PPC quite rightly says, unfortunately you now have no comeback in any case (unless the Bennett's agreed to take over all liabilities).
If you want to be absolutely 100% certain that your gem is a heated Tourmaline then you need to send it to the GIA in the US or Gubelin in Switzerland or the IGI. However, whilst I think all labs now test mounted stones, you'll have to pay for the stone to get there, insure it, pay for the testing (which isn't cheap if you're asking about treatments) and then the return postage. If it's a significant piece then the only method for shipping to use would be courier which will be very costly. You can go onto any of the Lab websites and download the prices.
In terms of the name "Paraiba Tourmaline" there has always been a debate as to whether this name should only apply to the neon Tourmalines found in Paraiba, Brazil or to the Mozambique finds as well. After much debate and angst, it was determined that the name "Paraiba" can be applied to a copper bearing Tourmaline IF it has the qualities of a Paraiba Tourmaline. This didn't satisfy serious gemstone collectors/snobs who wanted the "Paraiba" name to be like "Rolls Royce". Until the title "Paraiba" is determined NOT to include gems from Mozambique, you should consider yours to be called a Paraiba Tourmaline (if it fits the neon quality that a PT should). Unfortunately the word "Paraiba" has crept into many many many Tourmalines that quite frankly wouldn't deserve that title if they fell over it and I'm sorry to say but I'd include many that have been sold in the past year or so from the TV Shopping Channels (all of them, not one in particular). In order to be a Paraiba not only should the chemical compound be correct BUT the stone should literally radiate neon-ness and until you've seen one like that, you'll know what I mean! As Emerald has said, unfortunately, what has been sold in the UK as "Paraiba Tourmaline" is probably a much more (very pretty) Cuprian Tourmaline. Cuprian's also have a value so don't think that you'll necessarily have bought a dud because a lovely Cuprian, whilst not quite reachy the heady ££££££££ heights of a PT, will have a very decent value also. So you can compare, a REAL PT will have the neon quality of those in the attached picture (or something very close).
So, please don't stress. The information was only posted here to make people aware that you shouldn't assume a gem is natural. Start from the standpoint that EVERY gem is treated in some way and then work back from there. The ONLY way to be sure is to have a report from a reputable Lab (i.e those named above and there are several others also). There are some labs that I wouldn't trust to test anything (and don't in fact have the equipment to do so) so buyer beware!
If you buy any gemstone from Ebay assume that you're getting a nuked, cooked, dyed, filled, fake, laser drilled, composite gem and you won't be far wrong!
If you want to be absolutely 100% certain that your gem is a heated Tourmaline then you need to send it to the GIA in the US or Gubelin in Switzerland or the IGI. However, whilst I think all labs now test mounted stones, you'll have to pay for the stone to get there, insure it, pay for the testing (which isn't cheap if you're asking about treatments) and then the return postage. If it's a significant piece then the only method for shipping to use would be courier which will be very costly. You can go onto any of the Lab websites and download the prices.
In terms of the name "Paraiba Tourmaline" there has always been a debate as to whether this name should only apply to the neon Tourmalines found in Paraiba, Brazil or to the Mozambique finds as well. After much debate and angst, it was determined that the name "Paraiba" can be applied to a copper bearing Tourmaline IF it has the qualities of a Paraiba Tourmaline. This didn't satisfy serious gemstone collectors/snobs who wanted the "Paraiba" name to be like "Rolls Royce". Until the title "Paraiba" is determined NOT to include gems from Mozambique, you should consider yours to be called a Paraiba Tourmaline (if it fits the neon quality that a PT should). Unfortunately the word "Paraiba" has crept into many many many Tourmalines that quite frankly wouldn't deserve that title if they fell over it and I'm sorry to say but I'd include many that have been sold in the past year or so from the TV Shopping Channels (all of them, not one in particular). In order to be a Paraiba not only should the chemical compound be correct BUT the stone should literally radiate neon-ness and until you've seen one like that, you'll know what I mean! As Emerald has said, unfortunately, what has been sold in the UK as "Paraiba Tourmaline" is probably a much more (very pretty) Cuprian Tourmaline. Cuprian's also have a value so don't think that you'll necessarily have bought a dud because a lovely Cuprian, whilst not quite reachy the heady ££££££££ heights of a PT, will have a very decent value also. So you can compare, a REAL PT will have the neon quality of those in the attached picture (or something very close).
So, please don't stress. The information was only posted here to make people aware that you shouldn't assume a gem is natural. Start from the standpoint that EVERY gem is treated in some way and then work back from there. The ONLY way to be sure is to have a report from a reputable Lab (i.e those named above and there are several others also). There are some labs that I wouldn't trust to test anything (and don't in fact have the equipment to do so) so buyer beware!
If you buy any gemstone from Ebay assume that you're getting a nuked, cooked, dyed, filled, fake, laser drilled, composite gem and you won't be far wrong!
Sacha
Keep calm - Log on
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2008
- Messages
- 1,521
Many thanks Meesh for all the above and hopefully it will help to reassure some PT owners, who having spent a significant amount of money have the right to feel 100% (approx) confident in their purchases' provenance.
Much depends, I suppose, on the experience and abilities of the company's gem buyers, who for GemsTV have changed over the years, I believe. Wasn't it a Debbie ......? involved in the initial set up or was she just a designer of high end pieces?
But it did remind me that in early 2009 (approx) we were told that Richard Hughes had become involved with the foreign operations of GemsTV. And being a very highly respected and award winning gemmologist, it did provide some reassurance that someone of that calibre had linked up with GTV (he also edited the last handbook ...one with the black cover).
I do wonder though if he stayed on after the IW team moved in (UK) and we ended up being sold giftware and trinkets and pseudo gemstones!
Much depends, I suppose, on the experience and abilities of the company's gem buyers, who for GemsTV have changed over the years, I believe. Wasn't it a Debbie ......? involved in the initial set up or was she just a designer of high end pieces?
But it did remind me that in early 2009 (approx) we were told that Richard Hughes had become involved with the foreign operations of GemsTV. And being a very highly respected and award winning gemmologist, it did provide some reassurance that someone of that calibre had linked up with GTV (he also edited the last handbook ...one with the black cover).
I do wonder though if he stayed on after the IW team moved in (UK) and we ended up being sold giftware and trinkets and pseudo gemstones!
Meeshoo
Registered Shopper
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 946
Sacha, in April this year, GemsTV US filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy and a statement was released saying:
"Gems TV USA Limited is a wholly-owned subsidiary of GemsTV Holdings Limited (Incorporated with limited liability in the Cayman Islands on April 23, 2001 and traded on the Singapore Stock Exchange) whose other companies include NCS Group Co Ltd., GemsTV UK, GemsTV Japan and Thaigem.com for which Richard W. Hughes is listed as Senior Vice President of Gemstone Acquisition & Marketing. "
So it looks like he's still very much affiliated with them.
Richard Hughes was previously the Senior Staff Gemologist of AGTA GTC so I'm pretty sure if GemsTV were selling dodgy Paraiba Tourmaline he'd not want to risk his professional reputation. When he moved to GemsTV there was an article that said:
"Hughes will work with Loretta Castoro, also a former AGTA-GTC employee, at Gems TV, the on-air television gem sales company based in Singapore, with offices in Bangkok, Thailand. Hughes’s wife, Wimon, is from Bangkok.
Hughes will be involved in marketing and will help train Gems TV’s on-air presenters. He also will work with the staff on how to properly identify gemstones when buying.
Hughes has a strong background in gemology, gemstone identification, and evaluation, as well as how world politics plays a role in the availability of gem materials. He is the author of the critically acclaimed and self-published Ruby & Sapphire, and has written over 100 articles on various aspects of gemology. Prior to working at AGTA-GTC, Hughes worked for Pala International in Fallbrook, Calif."
"Gems TV USA Limited is a wholly-owned subsidiary of GemsTV Holdings Limited (Incorporated with limited liability in the Cayman Islands on April 23, 2001 and traded on the Singapore Stock Exchange) whose other companies include NCS Group Co Ltd., GemsTV UK, GemsTV Japan and Thaigem.com for which Richard W. Hughes is listed as Senior Vice President of Gemstone Acquisition & Marketing. "
So it looks like he's still very much affiliated with them.
Richard Hughes was previously the Senior Staff Gemologist of AGTA GTC so I'm pretty sure if GemsTV were selling dodgy Paraiba Tourmaline he'd not want to risk his professional reputation. When he moved to GemsTV there was an article that said:
"Hughes will work with Loretta Castoro, also a former AGTA-GTC employee, at Gems TV, the on-air television gem sales company based in Singapore, with offices in Bangkok, Thailand. Hughes’s wife, Wimon, is from Bangkok.
Hughes will be involved in marketing and will help train Gems TV’s on-air presenters. He also will work with the staff on how to properly identify gemstones when buying.
Hughes has a strong background in gemology, gemstone identification, and evaluation, as well as how world politics plays a role in the availability of gem materials. He is the author of the critically acclaimed and self-published Ruby & Sapphire, and has written over 100 articles on various aspects of gemology. Prior to working at AGTA-GTC, Hughes worked for Pala International in Fallbrook, Calif."
Last edited:
Sapphireblue
Registered Shopper
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2009
- Messages
- 244
Hi all
I am waiting for Gems to confirm in writing that my three rings are authentic in writing.
Thank you Meeshoo for the info regarding gems laboratory. I will wait for Gems to reply before making a decision on lab testing.
Also the website is amazing, I could not believe how many gemstones in the market that are treated.
Kind regards Sapphireblue
I am waiting for Gems to confirm in writing that my three rings are authentic in writing.
Thank you Meeshoo for the info regarding gems laboratory. I will wait for Gems to reply before making a decision on lab testing.
Also the website is amazing, I could not believe how many gemstones in the market that are treated.
Kind regards Sapphireblue
Meeshoo
Registered Shopper
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 946
Sapphireblue - what are you actually asking GemsTV because "authentic" doesn't actually mean anything other than "not fake"? If you're asking, are they from Brazil and so definitely "Paraiba Tourmaline" the answer will probably be "no" because 99% of GemsTV PT's were from Mozambique. If you're asking "are these actual PT's?" the answer will be that 50% of gem collectors/afficiendaos will say yes if they're from Brazil and no if they're from Mozambique. The other 50% will say the opposite. The current ruling is that PT's from Mozambique can be called Paraiba Tourmaline.
If you're asking "does my PT fit the criteria to be categorised as a PT?" the answer will be that GemsTV thinks it does because of the chemical compound. Whether it would be categorised by appraisers as such (i.e. they also look at colour - which is the key definitor other than chemical compound) is debatable. I own many PTs and in all honesty only probably 4 would be classified as high class PT. The others are weak examples.
If you're asking what treatment has been applied to your gemstones, then GemsTV have already answered you because they've said they're heat treated. If they had been treated in any other way, they would have disclosed that too.
Hope that helps.
Hi
Not been on in quite a while so trying to catch up. Looking at this thread I was surprised that ametrine was listed as one treated. I was always under the impression that these stones couldn't be heated as the whole stone would change colour, is this not the case?
Not been on in quite a while so trying to catch up. Looking at this thread I was surprised that ametrine was listed as one treated. I was always under the impression that these stones couldn't be heated as the whole stone would change colour, is this not the case?
