Basso Fri 19th Sept

[Fraggle]

Wouldnt be like you Tootsie, would it?

Comments like that are why debates turn into arguments.

Please let's not make this personal between people.

 

[WillyNilly]

I'm really not wanting to get into a silly argument here but are you really saying if it came to a decision between saving a human's life and an animal's life you'd put them both on equal footing?

No I would not put them on equal footing,
If I had to choose between saving my dog and saving my old man
the dog would be way ahead...........:18::18::18:

 

[Houserabbit]

I'm really not wanting to get into a silly argument here but are you really saying if it came to a decision between saving a human's life and an animal's life you'd put them both on equal footing?

That's an interesting question. Which human, which animal? If it were a choice between saving my bunny or Gary Glitter - no contest.

If they were both strangers to me, I'd save the human. Why? Because the loss of the human would be likely to create the most hurt - they are likely to be connected to more people, probably had more influence on the world. But that doesn't mean that the animal's life is worth nothing.

I don't see human life as more "important" than animal life. I am uncomfortable with a ranking system based on perceived value. Are disabled people of less importance than able-bodied people because of their more limited potential? The conclusion of a system like that ends up in the gas chambers.

 

[tootsie]

That's an interesting question. Which human, which animal? If it were a choice between saving my bunny or Gary Glitter - no contest.

If they were both strangers to me, I'd save the human. Why? Because the loss of the human would be likely to create the most hurt - they are likely to be connected to more people, probably had more influence on the world. But that doesn't mean that the animal's life is worth nothing.

I don't see human life as more "important" than animal life. I am uncomfortable with a ranking system based on perceived value. Are disabled people of less importance than able-bodied people because of their more limited potential? The conclusion of a system like that ends up in the gas chambers.

I would argue about disabled people having a more limited potential, Steven Hawking being a fantastic case in point but that is veering from the point :1:...

I find this whole subject fascinating, and I wonder just how much of is culturally dictated (98% at a guess) We know longer farm our own animals, no longer rely on meat for sustenance and have the option of being vegetarian. Hunting no longer has the status that is once had, while the women gathered in the grain and kept everyone going through lean times and yet the celebration was reserved for the spoils of the hunt. We are now squeamish about the details of the preparation of our food, we buy our chickens plucked and free from giblets, our meat filleted and processed, and are removed from the steps between the animals in pasture and the meat in the packaging. The like to think we are a nation of animal lovers, and that our animals are treated wit dignity and respect.

I don't wear fur, but only because I think it looks better on the animal itself. I do wear leather. I do eat meat. If I saw a fur item I liked I probably wouldn't buy it, but only because as a student I'm surrounded by militant vegetarians and vegans and probably wouldn't be brave enough :1: However in years to come I might change my mind. I am not outraged by fur, I don't think fur farms are any worse than cattle farms, and certainly no worse than Bernard Matthews Turkey farms - remember the baseball tapes?

 

[LipstickCherry]

I would argue about disabled people having a more limited potential, Steven Hawking being a fantastic case in point but that is veering from the point :1:...

I find this whole subject fascinating, and I wonder just how much of is culturally dictated (98% at a guess) We know longer farm our own animals, no longer rely on meat for sustenance and have the option of being vegetarian. Hunting no longer has the status that is once had, while the women gathered in the grain and kept everyone going through lean times and yet the celebration was reserved for the spoils of the hunt. We are now squeamish about the details of the preparation of our food, we buy our chickens plucked and free from giblets, our meat filleted and processed, and are removed from the steps between the animals in pasture and the meat in the packaging. The like to think we are a nation of animal lovers, and that our animals are treated wit dignity and respect.

I don't wear fur, but only because I think it looks better on the animal itself. I do wear leather. I do eat meat. If I saw a fur item I liked I probably wouldn't buy it, but only because as a student I'm surrounded by militant vegetarians and vegans and probably wouldn't be brave enough :1: However in years to come I might change my mind. I am not outraged by fur, I don't think fur farms are any worse than cattle farms, and certainly no worse than Bernard Matthews Turkey farms - remember the baseball tapes?

My mum always had a turkey with giblets at Christmas and I always had the heart and the neck meat. Yum.

 

[Jabbathehut]

I would argue about disabled people having a more limited potential, Steven Hawking being a fantastic case in point but that is veering from the point :1:...

I find this whole subject fascinating, and I wonder just how much of is culturally dictated (98% at a guess) We know longer farm our own animals, no longer rely on meat for sustenance and have the option of being vegetarian. Hunting no longer has the status that is once had, while the women gathered in the grain and kept everyone going through lean times and yet the celebration was reserved for the spoils of the hunt. We are now squeamish about the details of the preparation of our food, we buy our chickens plucked and free from giblets, our meat filleted and processed, and are removed from the steps between the animals in pasture and the meat in the packaging. The like to think we are a nation of animal lovers, and that our animals are treated wit dignity and respect.

I don't wear fur, but only because I think it looks better on the animal itself. I do wear leather. I do eat meat. If I saw a fur item I liked I probably wouldn't buy it, but only because as a student I'm surrounded by militant vegetarians and vegans and probably wouldn't be brave enough :1: However in years to come I might change my mind. I am not outraged by fur, I don't think fur farms are any worse than cattle farms, and certainly no worse than Bernard Matthews Turkey farms - remember the baseball tapes?

Very well said tootsie and I fully agree with your sentiments :ANYWORD::ANYWORD:

 

[Twinkle]

I understand that some people believe human life is more important than animal life but I don't agree.

My darling house rabbit has many different moods, he expresses excitement, curiosity, affection, fear, boredom, naughtiness. First thing in the morning he races round the house leaping into the air out of sheer joy at being a bun. He knows when I'm upset and tries to comfort me, he loves to play games and we have competitions together (who can wriggle out from under the rug first - he always wins). He understands a lot of what I say ("litter tray, please, Hendrix") and we communicate in lots of other ways too. When he wants fresh food he will lead me to his bowl and look into it pointedly. Sometimes he behaves like a sulky teenager flicking his back legs up at me in disgust at my actions ("I'm only going into my hutch because I WANT to, not because you SAID so"). He loves being massaged and you can see the look of purest pleasure on his face while Daddy gives him a good ear rub.

There's no way I could dismiss animals as "dumb" or with anything less of a self than I have. Surely the mark of a civilised society is how it treats its most vulnerable - it's our duty to love and respect the animals we share this earth with.

Here endeth my lesson. :1:

VERY well said!

My sentiments exactly! :1:

 

[Jabbathehut]

Just proves that we ALL have different views, and neither side have any right to judge those with a differing opinion.


Live and let live I say :dance::dance:

 

[Bettyboo]

I would argue about disabled people having a more limited potential, Steven Hawking being a fantastic case in point but that is veering from the point :1:...

I find this whole subject fascinating, and I wonder just how much of is culturally dictated (98% at a guess) We know longer farm our own animals, no longer rely on meat for sustenance and have the option of being vegetarian. Hunting no longer has the status that is once had, while the women gathered in the grain and kept everyone going through lean times and yet the celebration was reserved for the spoils of the hunt. We are now squeamish about the details of the preparation of our food, we buy our chickens plucked and free from giblets, our meat filleted and processed, and are removed from the steps between the animals in pasture and the meat in the packaging. The like to think we are a nation of animal lovers, and that our animals are treated wit dignity and respect.

I don't wear fur, but only because I think it looks better on the animal itself. I do wear leather. I do eat meat. If I saw a fur item I liked I probably wouldn't buy it, but only because as a student I'm surrounded by militant vegetarians and vegans and probably wouldn't be brave enough :1: However in years to come I might change my mind. I am not outraged by fur, I don't think fur farms are any worse than cattle farms, and certainly no worse than Bernard Matthews Turkey farms - remember the baseball tapes?

What a fantastic post you have said what I could never put into words so eloquently. I totally agree with you on this subject.

 

[tootsie]

I've just re-read and noticed a heap of spelling mistakes, so I dunno about eloquent lol, but it is a very emotive subject, I can see how some people so strongly on the subject.

 

[lawrenson]

Hi,

one thing we all seem to agree on is that Mr basso is a disgusting man.

Cheers,
Karen

 

[tootsie]

Hi,

one thing we all seem to agree on is that Mr basso is a disgusting man.

Cheers,
Karen

I don't have any opinions on the man, I've never watched any of his shows, so I don't agree with you Karen.

 

[harfarhs]

However, when every human on the planet has access to medical care and education, adequate nutrition, safe drinking water and shelter, then I'll speak for the animal kingdom

If all the "dumb" animals were to disappear, the world's eco-system would collapse in short order.. if humans went, only caged animals would see any problem. Animals are much more important.

 

[harfarhs]

the more time i am with qvc the more i think they only REALLY rate new customers - retaining customers is great, but new customers is where the big money is

Really? I believe the overwhelming weight of advice given to businesses, generally, is to proceed on the opposite basis..

 

[harfarhs]

The problem is that by buying into the Basso brand whather you're buying fake or real fur you're condoning what he does and giving him the revenue to carry on doing it

So you think he funds his real-fur operation with the profits from his fake furs?

 

[Calvin]

If all the "dumb" animals were to disappear, the world's eco-system would collapse in short order.. if humans went, only caged animals would see any problem. Animals are much more important.

I did not call animals 'dumb' and although I know very little about eco-systems, I realise the importance of all the various systems on Earth.

However, my point didn't concern eco-systems, it was about the welfare of humans, and that is a more important matter than animal well-being. Our first duty is to care for our fellow humans.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I did not call animals 'dumb' and although I know very little about eco-systems, I realise the importance of all the various systems on Earth.

However, my point didn't concern eco-systems, it was about the welfare of humans, and that is a more important matter than animal well-being. Our first duty is to care for our fellow humans.

Actually that's just your opinion.
That kind of attitude reminds me of people who won't give to charities helping people in different countries, because "If it's not on my doorstep I don't care".

Animals can't speak for themselves so they have to be protected. Why should they be born simply to provide us with clothes and food? Why should they be tortured simply to make our stomachs full for a few hours or make a handbag.

Yes a lot of humans can't look after themselves, and we should help them. Thing is, we can help them and animals at the same time. It's not a 'one or the other' type situation.

 

[tootsie]

Actually that's just your opinion.
That kind of attitude reminds me of people who won't give to charities helping people in different countries, because "If it's not on my doorstep I don't care".

Animals can't speak for themselves so they have to be protected. Why should they be born simply to provide us with clothes and food? Why should they be tortured simply to make our stomachs full for a few hours or make a handbag.

Yes a lot of humans can't look after themselves, and we should help them. Thing is, we can help them and animals at the same time. It's not a 'one or the other' type situation.

Unfortunately Harley it is. The world is one full of inequalities, and presently we can't look after all our humans and animals equally.

Neither Calvin, nor any other poster here, is advocating the torture or mistreatment of any animal for food or clothing, nobody cheers and watching the Bernard Matthews video for s**** and giggles; but what Calvin is IMO quite rightly saying, is human rights should come before animal rights.

Take for example gay rights, a subject very close to my heart, and not wanting to detract too much from the subject of the thread, but today in Turkey, while homosexuality is not illegal, gay people are still beaten to death in honour killings. In Lithuania, gay rights marchers are attacked with smoke bombs.

Taking it even closer to home, look at how we treat our children. There are many shocking cases hitting the headlines on a weekly basis. Victoria Climbie, the boy in the suitcase in the Thames, a girl starved to death this year, a 5 month old and a 3 year old last year - all these off the top of my head, and there are more and more on a daily basis, many of which never come to our attention.

Having had a child placed in my care, and reported her abuse, and reported the abuse of an animal, I know it is much easier to have an animal removed from an abusive situation than is is to have a child removed from an abusive situation.

Resources are finite, there is not enough money the world to feed, clothe and protect every human, never mind to extend this to every animal. where do you draw the line? Household pets? My friend in Peru hunted down, and ate cuy - guinea pig - for her dinner last week. We had pet giunea pigs a few years ago. Does that make it wrong? I minded my friend's rats a few years ago when she was on holiday, and lavished them with every care and attention, but believe me if I ever get rats in the house I won't sleep while they live. Does that make me inhumane? I think it makes me realistic.

Back to fur/meat/vegetarianism. It's all down to personal preference. I find the fur debate brings out the militant side of otherwise placid people, yet fur is farmed no differently to meat, and the animals are subject to the same regulation and control. Yes, it may be somewhat distasteful to drape yourself in an animals dead corpse, yet my leather bags and shoes are still a corpse, just well disguised.

 

[yazrose]

Great post Tootsie.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I have to disagree with you.
There is MORE than enough money in this world to help everyone, yet the rich keep a hold of their purse strings.
So yes there is enough money to help out humans and animals. And animals DO deserve as much rights as humans. They were on this planet long before us, in fact we evolved from them, so why are we more special?
I'm not saying people don't need help, child abuse, starving people, it's vile. But they are a living creature just as an animal is.

You ask if eating an animal is wrong. Well yes it is wrong in my opinion. We don't need to eat meat, we don't need to wear leather clothing or silk.

I understand it's hard for many people to care about animals as much as they care about humans, but not many years ago at all, women weren't seen as equal to men. Black people weren't seen as being worthy of any rights, the hatred of Jews, people with disabilities.
I'd be careful of elevating anything above something else, as nothing is more special than something else.